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santa c

Post by santa c »

Got tired of the notes and lowered rank cause I didn't state if it's ko or to live/ kill the whole thing. It's not just me, you know.

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{Posted by santa c}
santa c

Post by santa c »

(adum any chance u'll create some kind of a "sticky" msg for such discussions? so that it wouldn't just pass on..?)

{Posted by santa c}
zinger

Post by zinger »

I'm with you, santa. I posted a short rant in problem 5626 about this kind of thing. I just think it is wrong to give "solved" to a sequence when another sequence is absolutely, proveably better in any game situation.

{Posted by zinger}
Emile Wester

Post by Emile Wester »

To zinger:
Although I feel there's nothing wrong with striving for the best possible solution (as you state in your rant at problem http://www.goproblems.com/comment.php3?prob=5626, Xela's answer is the one with more merit in my opinion.

"Correct" is in my view "that which wins you the game", and then there are subtleties like winning a few points with a better 'solution'. (note how there are less and less correct ways as you and your opponents get stronger, all the way to 9d (and perhaps stronger, since even a 9d doesn't know all the 'correct' moves))

Santa c's post is about a comment of my own on one of his problems (http://www.goproblems.com/prob.php3?id=5652 ) where he asks the number of ways that let black live. Now that's a whole different question than e.g. "best way to live". It's more like: "enumerate exhaustively every way to live".
In this type of problem, better or worse solutions don't matter.

So my comment on santa c's problem was that he could make it unambiguous by changing the problem's comment to that you should save all your stones, not just live with part of it (only two stones were lost). Important here is that you have to enumerate ways to live, so this makes it rather ambiguous, don't you think?

To santa c:
I too hate to state the obvious in problems, like "ko's not good enough" and such, but I think that this doesn't apply to "enumerate" problems. What, e.g., would you call a ko in such problem, a solution or not? I would call it one of the ways to live, for sure!
And that's what these problems (enumerate) are for, finding all ways to live, be it ko, partly alive, gote or sente.

Quote from description of "how many ways" group:
These problems ask you not just to kill or live, but how many ways there are to do it. This is good training, because many go players quit as soon as they find one way, without examining all the possibilities that may have different effects on the surrounding situation.


{Posted by Emile Wester}
Emile Wester

Post by Emile Wester »

[quote]
Got tired of the notes and lowered rank[/quote]
Btw, the problem we were talking about is still at rank 10. ;-)

And did you consider ways to live partially but with sente? (not that this applies to this particular case, but I meant this in general) What would you think of that, a 'better' solution? That all depends whether it's in the endgame or not and if there are bigger plays etc, not to mention tedomari.

To clarify why I mention this, the variation in which white answered wrongly in problem 5652 (Bb3 Wa5 Ba4 Wb6 Bb5 Wa6), white ended in gote while black lived with the rest of the stones and could take the initiative! Clearly the better solution in most cases, were it not that white could kill with b6.

I thought Bb3 would make black live at first, which is why I thought that there were 4 solutions at first and what I wanted to comment about, only to find Wb6 as the answer to kill (which you've fixed now), leaving only 3 ways to live for black (third only partial).

Because Bb3 ended in sente for black at first, I thought it was a better solution and that's why I wanted the problem to state "save the whole group". Though now that only an inferior solution remains, Ba4 (which doesn't give black sente), I still feel that it is a way to live and should be counted as such.



{Posted by Emile Wester}
Emile Wester

Post by Emile Wester »

On sensei's library, it says:
Just as there're logical life, ko, death priopities there's also another priority - To live with the whole group / Kill the whole group if possible. (Unlike endgame problems normally you aren't asked to count points but keep as much of your stones)

This is a bit vague description (also with bad spelling and punctuation) but it still doesn't apply to "enumerate" problems IMO.
Btw, santa c, are you reuven? Since that section has been added today. I'm also ElDraco, so I'm fixing that on sensei's.

{Posted by Emile Wester}
santa c

Post by santa c »

hmm... talking about specific problems...

ohh well - was raised in a some problem a long while ago - and no ko isn't a solution when unconditional is possible - not even in count the ways. now the reason's because it's simply silly to start a ko when u can live - so it's not a way u'd chose. (again in most cases..and we consider general cases unless we have more info or the whole board) and so is living with half a group when u can live with it all - yes it's not a counting/endgame problem so u don't go actually counting the points (can argue about correct solutions being correct if u'r not doing it..) but losin stones is usually clearly bad isn't it? as for sente/gote - usually u take sente if u can as a priority but when it may cost points and such u look at the rest of the board/ instructions and the "heat" the problem suggests and act accordingly - if none exist both sente and gote would be correct in most cases...

as for the 10 i was surprised... not because i don't belive it's a good problem but from prior expirience...

btw, yes it's me - i added it and asked for opinion.. (and yea i know my sp and gr rn't too good when i don't bother.. since i only chat online ever since i finished the english finals..)

{Posted by santa c}
Emile Wester

Post by Emile Wester »

[quote]
ohh well - was raised in a some problem a long while ago - and no ko isn't a solution when unconditional is possible - not even in count the ways. now the reason's because it's simply silly to start a ko when u can live - so it's not a way u'd chose. [/quote]
I can't agree with you on this point. You're stating that ko isn't 'a' way to live. Leaving 'solutions' behind and just talking about 'ways to live' which you were asking for in that problem.

Am I right that you've just stated that ko isn't a way to live? Remember that "count the ways" problems are all about ALL the ways to live, so if ko can be a way to live, then that should definitely be counted. How many times have I shown a beginner a problem and then after he found the solution, I show some other things like a ko and he says: "ah, I didn't see that a ko was also possible", although in that problem the ko wasn't good enough.

The main point is that he didn't see the possibility and THAT is what is being trained with "count the ways" problems.
Are you disagreeing with this??


{Posted by Emile Wester}
Emile Wester

Post by Emile Wester »

[quote]btw, yes it's me - i added it and asked for opinion.. (and yea i know my sp and gr rn't too good when i don't bother.. since i only chat online ever since i finished the english finals..)[/quote]
That's okay, there are other people on sensei's (like me) to correct the sp and gr.


{Posted by Emile Wester}
santa c

Post by santa c »

count the way to mars? nope - only ways which u may play to do somthing - Would YOU start an unnecessary ko where YOU can live unconditionaly in a real game? - it all comes down to this!

{Posted by santa c}
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