***TsumegoConventions***

Emile Wester

Post by Emile Wester »

[quote]
count the way to mars? nope - only ways which u may play to do somthing - Would YOU start an unneseccery ko where YOU can live unconditionaly in a real game? - it all comes down to this!
[/quote]
We're not talking about a real game! Did you know that about 90% (just made that up but just to show a point) of a game is happening in the players' heads? Most of the aji is never played out. At every move there are countless possibilities, which ALL must be considered. To practice this, we have "count the ways" problems. You shouldn't dismiss ko as wrong only because there are better solutions and neither should you dismiss partial life.

Are you disagreeing with me on the point that ko is a way to live? Can you answer that please?


{Posted by Emile Wester}
santa c

Post by santa c »

so u want to count every way? u want to count the ways which lead to life+ko+death? u want to simply count every move which may affect the group? why stop there? why not count evry empty intersection on the board? it's not like u may not consider a19? i may be exhadurating but "just because it won't be played"...

{Posted by santa c}
Emile Wester

Post by Emile Wester »

[quote]Would YOU start an unneseccery ko where YOU can live unconditionaly in a real game?[/quote]
I already stated before that I also hate to have to comment "live/kill without ko" where an unconditional solution exists, so we're not disagreeing on that point. It just doesn't boil down to this point, but to whether "ways to live" include partial and/or ko's.


{Posted by Emile Wester}
santa c

Post by santa c »

it's not a way to live... if it isn't a correct solution to a "to live" problem with the same setting. kos and such are moves to be read-out and considered however aren't a solution in such a case... neither is seki btw since seki like living with half a group is "clear"(doesn't require counting like endgame probs) points give-away...

if your argument is that it's not clear then what we should be doing is asking adum to add something to the group description.

{Posted by santa c}
Emile Wester

Post by Emile Wester »

[quote]
so u want to count every way? u want to count the ways which lead to life+ko+death? u want to simply count every move which may affect the group? why stop there? why not count evry empty intersection on the board? it's not like u may not consider a19? i may be exhadurating but "just because it won't be played"...
[/quote]
You're not making sense anymore. What do you mean by every way?
Ofcourse I don't want to count moves that only affect the group or empty intersections. You're insulting my intelligence now...

I'm *only* talking about moves that you can play to make the group live. In other words: "ways to live". Playing on just some empty intersection wouldn't accomplish that goal, now would it?

The point we're discussing really, is whether you should mention in "count the ways" if partial and/or ko isn't good enough, agreed?
My opinion is that you should at least mention that partial life isn't good enough. I'm a bit doubtful about ko myself, but I'd mention it myself always.

Mind you, I don't mention ko in 'normal' L&D problems where you can kill/live unconditionally. I think that people should find that out for themselves.

{Posted by Emile Wester}
Emile Wester

Post by Emile Wester »

[quote]exhadurating[/quote]
What does exhadurating mean?

*edit* wait, now I understand. "Exaggerating". I really didn't understand at first, not attacking your sp/gr.


{Posted by Emile Wester}
santa c

Post by santa c »

^^* - i knew it was spelled wrongly... was just too lazy to check what's the correct spelling ;)

i sent an email to adum asking to clear it up in the group definition...

{Posted by santa c}
Emile Wester

Post by Emile Wester »

[quote]if your argument is that it's not clear then what we should be doing is asking adum to add something to the group description.[/quote]
That would clear things up a bit, though it still depends on what you would consider "ways to live" what should be added.

Maybe it's better to wait for some different people to comment on this and see what's the general opinion about this.


{Posted by Emile Wester}
Emile Wester

Post by Emile Wester »

[quote]
^^* - i knew it was spelled wrongly... was just too lazy to check what's the correct spelling ;)

i sent an email to adum asking to clear it up in the group definition...
[/quote]
Ok, that's cool. :)


{Posted by Emile Wester}
Emile Wester

Post by Emile Wester »

[quote]
neither is seki btw since seki like living with half a group is "clear"(doesn't require counting like endgame probs) points give-away...[/quote]

I disagree that seki wouldn't be a solution to "count the ways". Adum also seems to disagree with you on this point, as is seen in a recent problem by him: www.goproblems.com/prob.php3?id=5304

Try the variation: Wh1 Bk4 (black's strongest reply unless sente is important, since the other one lets white get two eyes) Wl1 Bj1 (throw-in) Wk1 Bk3 (seki though gote for black)


{Posted by Emile Wester}
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